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Posts posted by 1949threepence

  1. On 10/4/2019 at 11:23 PM, Peckris 2 said:


    That's interesting. That makes the 19KN less than half as scarce as the 18KN, and I've always thought it much more scarce when you look at the numbers available for sale, and the numbers found. Mind you, the catalogues never had a 19KN so much more valuable, except perhaps in UNC.


    Going back to this question, I'm wondering to what extent Court's estimates on several early 20th century scarcities, are accurate. 

    For those who are unaware, V.R.Court ran a short series of incredibly useful (and to this day still referred to) articles under the heading, "Major varieties of UK pennies 1902 to 1967", notably in the August and September 1972 editions of Coin Monthly. 

    Court's opinion on the mintages for these varieties (pre melt), are as follows:-

    1902 low tide =  1,212,600 (sounds about right)

    1903 open 3   =       37,300 (possibly slight underestimate?)

    1905 F160      = 3,231,350 (sounds about right)

    1908 F164      = 1,166,550 (sounds about right)

    1908 F164A   =      55,550 (yes, but see F176)

    1908 F165      = 3,370,000 (sounds about right)

    1909 F169      =      23,200 (sounds about right)

    1913 F175      = 1,733,500 (given current availability, maybe an over estimate, or just not collected)

    1913 F176      =    948,750 (as above)

    1915 rec ear   = 5,404,200 (maybe over estimate)

    1916 rec ear  = 16,129,850 (sounds about right) 

    1918H            =    2,465,658 (probably about correct, but reported degree of scarcity in the immediate pre -withdrawal period may have been due to collector uptake)

    1918KN          =   1,195,142  (as above)

    1919H             =   4,787,556 (probably about correct)

    1919KN           =     422,044 (as above)

    Mostly correct I'd say, but with a major discrepancy (in my view) between open 3 & 164A on the one hand, with F175 & F176, on the other.

    If Court's figures on the 175 & 176 are correct, then it would suggest the vast majority met their fate in the melt, having not been specifically collected, except by default. Actually, that could well be the case given that there are a fair number of the extant population of 175's and 176's that are in high grade, whereas conversely that is manifestly not the case for the open 3 and the 164A. 

    Post melt, probably all four types are of roughly comparable rarity.     







    • Like 1

  2. 15 hours ago, azda said:

    I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. Paypal may be convenient but they're a lousy outfit who effectively abuse their decent customers with extremely poor customer service and now this. The conclusion has to be that you can't trust them to back you up in the event of a problem not of your making. 

    If there were some way round never using them, I'd take it. 

  3. On 10/15/2019 at 7:35 PM, blakeyboy said:

    Now, the reason you could read the heading is because it's westernised.

    A bit like what the French did in Vietnam- they made everyone write words in western characters so they could be pronounced by westerners.

    So-- 'Feng Shui'.....why not "Fung Shuei", as it's bloody pronounced???

    Which is the whole point of giving it a western spelling in the first bloody place!!!

    It makes no sense whatsoever!!


    Anyone here have a clue as to what's going on there?

    I thought it was pronounced "feng shway".

    • Haha 1

  4. 19 minutes ago, shane carew said:

    I feel this listing can be included here. For a seller who is so good at identifying micro-varieties, both known and made-up, I find it hard to believe he would make such a glaring mis-attribution. This is by no means a F69 and quite possibly one of the easiest of the 1874 variants to acquire. Things like this kill the hobby for the budding numismatist, however, on the other end of the spectrum you also have this happening to entice new enthusiasts to scour ebay.

    Indeed. Somebody's fallen for it, He even got the grade wrong as it's NVF at best. Sadly, there really are some naive buyers out there.

    Mind, this guy's got form as you probably already know. 

    With regard to your other link, I wish the damn things were the right way up, but the one in the corner has the tell tale tall helmet plume. If the obverse in the same place matches, which I think it does, somebody's nabbed themselves a F76. Nice one. Again, it was recognised, as nobody would surely pay that much for the remainder of the tat. 

    • Like 1

  5. Very interesting Chris, and thanks for the info.

    Obviously, as you sort of indicate above, for the very rarest coins, it's almost impossible to obtain an example above fine anyway. In some cases, such as the F90 or F169, and with the exception of one, the F164A also, they simply don't exist in the known population.

    Truly BU pennies before 1883, are very few and far between, even for the "common" years. Mostly we have to settle for GEF with some residual lustre.


    • Like 1

  6. I don't think the F74 is a proof, nor was ever intended to be. Rather it is an intentional specimen, as opposed to an early strike from new polished dies. 

    The following description accompanied the Copthorne example:-



    86.     1874 Specimen issue. BMC 1698. F 74. Dies 7 + H. Small rim nick at 3 o'clock. Virtually as struck with some lustre.

    Ex D. Wallis Collection, DNW Auction 83, 30 September 2009, lot 3372 (from J. Welsh January 2000). Periodically, the Heaton mint struck carefully finished 'specimen' coins of varying denominations as an example of what the company could produce; in some instances they were presented as gifts to dignitaries and government officials and in other cases were part of the travelling portfolio of a Heaton sales representative

    (cf. Gunstone, SNC December 1977, p545; cf Tansley Collection, DNW 67, Lot 369 


    Anyway, here it is. It is an exceptionally good strike, especially to the obverse. But lacks any indication whatever of it being a proof.


    cropped 1874 obv.jpg

    cropped speciment 1874 rev.jpg

    • Like 3

  7. 1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

    I'm afraid this is a typical example of a scan obliterating all that's good about a coin's tone. However, it's the best I could do back then, but it doesn't show the penny's glossy dark blue/green patina.


    I can see that the fields are smooth and the strike very sharp.

    Are you able to take a picture now?


  8. 1 hour ago, Bryan said:

    Does anyone know of any coin dealers in the Hertfordshire area? 

    Looking through the list of dealers in last year's Coin Yearbook, I can only find two in Hertfordshire itself:-

    M.G.Coins & Antiquities, 12 Mansfield, High Wych CM12-OJJ - Tel 01279 721719

    David Miller Coins and Antiquities, PO Box 711 Hemel Hempstead, HP2 4UH - Tel 01442 251492

    Although plenty in adjacent and nearby counties, Essex, Berkshire, Bucks, Cambs, Oxfordshire, Surrey and Northants.

    Hope this helps. If you order a 2020 coin yearbook from Token Publishing, you'll be able to see them all. Available as an e version or hard copy.  

  9. 1 hour ago, Bryan said:

    Thanks for the welcome blakeyboy. I’m only just beginning to see how vast this hobby actually is and it looks like you could spend a lifetime collecting from just one era...

    I’m looking forward to starting the journey.

    Re: bit in bold - actually, depending on how in depth you go, that is pretty much spot on.

    Welcome to the forum, enjoy the experience, and please don't be shy of asking any questions. 

  10. 11 minutes ago, jelida said:

    If some specimen coins have a wide rim, but are struck from the same dies as the later currency strikes, would they not have to have a larger collar in the press, and be measurably wider? Otherwise with a wider rim the die would have to be fractionally smaller for a coin of standard size. Any thoughts?


    And I agree, the coin in question could easily be a “specimen” from the picture. But can we reliably distinguish these from early currency strikes from ‘proof’ dies, or even ‘new’ normal working dies? Unless the existence of specimens is contemporaneously recorded, how can there be any certainty?

    Good points Jerry. Logically, you're spot on. 

    Maybe the wide rim is a bit of an erroneous red herring.

  11. 4 hours ago, shane carew said:

    @Santa: Yes I have and the coin had a very sharp rim, but the coin is now slabbed. Also, the picture does not perfectly capture the bluish toning seen the coin.
    @1949: The Copthorne coin that you refer to was a lovely 'specimen'. Indeed, the rim is a good indicator but there are no official specimens of this date bar the Heatons as you rightly point out. Further, the F67 is one variety that I've hardly seen about 6 in high grades and at least 2 out of those had a thick rim. 


    Here's my F67, out of interest. Ordinary rim and definitely not a specimen, but as you say there are other non specimens with a thick rim.

    High grade, but definitely a currency strike, and a clear difference to yours, which does have all the hallmarks of a specimen strike. 





    freeman 67 rev cropped.jpg

    freeman 67 obv cropped.jpg

    • Like 1

  12. 19 minutes ago, secret santa said:

    I had put the £320 figure on my website but I've deleted it to avoid people trying to knock John down on all his prices.

    In fairness, he did have the "or make offer" option available, as he nearly always does. 

  13. 1 hour ago, shane carew said:

    Recently I came across a penny a Freeman 67, which is a rare type (6+H) that looked like it had been struck to a specimen standard. I could not find any reference of this type struck to either proof or specimen standard. Has anyone else come across one they would have thought was too good for a circulation strike? 



    No, in fact the only specimens/possible proofs known of in the 1874 series, are the Heaton Mint ones (F74). I actually successfully bid for the Copthorne example, in 2016.

    Your F67 definitely does have the typical red/blue toning characteristics of a specimen, as well as that thick rim, especially to the obverse, which my F74 has as well. 

    • Like 1

  14. Well I've now managed to obtain a really nice F176, again from John Jerrams (Topcarp2). Thanks for the heads up Jerry. Really pleased with this acquisition as the 176 is clearly very scare, even in low grade. So to get one like this is excellent.  

    I'd say it's aUNC/GEF, with decent hair detail, although as so often with this era, the breast plate is somewhat deficient. Britannia's head well struck up, however.  Tiny circular metal flaw on the King's head.

    Managed to knock him down from £320 to £280 best offer, which, given the condition, is a very reasonable price, with free postage and exclusive of any auction buyer fee. I must say, he does a good sell, and his write up's are always a pleasure to read. 



    FF 176 REV - cropped.jpg

    FF176 OBV cropped.jpg

    • Like 6