1949threepence

I still maintain there are many nice or "early strike" currency coins being wrongly passed as proofs, with the consequent massive uplift in cost for potential customers. I'd imagine these are a mixture of genuine error and deliberate cynical attempts to deceive. Virtually impossible to distinguish between the two, hence the fraudsters get away with it. Especially if they've also fooled NGC. My own rule of thumb is that some coins hit you in the eye as very obvious genuine proofs, as soon as you see them. I'd stick to them. Alternatively, some you know that cannot be anything other than a proof, such as the 1839 mentioned earlier, the KP31 1806 copper, bronzed copper and gilt proofs with the incomplete 0 & 1 in the date, and the R97 & R98 Taylor re-strikes with the tiny collection of rust spots at the base of the second A on the reverse. Slightest doubt, steer clear.

The mindset of "just stop oil", is one of making life annoying for others who are completely unrelated to the issue.

Yes, the superb LCA specimen you mention, went in December 2009 for £950 hammer. I do remember the Dave Craddock one, but obviously there was no photo and it had gone by the time I enquired. The PT isn't that difficult to get in high grade. It's the OT that's seemingly difficult. Yes, they would be very collectable, Ian.

I thought that.

But presumably Ian, not one of your 76 OT 1856 finds was in high grade?

Bruce - indeed - that's a very, very nice example of the rare Bramah 15 intermediate colon. Neat capture.

Agreed.

So what was it about the obverse that rendered it "impaired"? (as compared to the reverse)

Somebody's having a larf with that one.

Well interestingly, Freeman has the F78 as R12, whereas an 1871 is R8, the 1869 is R11, and the 1864 is R10 (crosslet) and R9 ) plain. Overall, of course, the 1874 penny is R4, so maybe the varieties have got a bit lost in the mix over the years, as compared to the individually dated single coins. Moreover, the probability is that they weren't sought to anything like the extent that say an 1869 would have been prior to the big melt, so most would have been lost. The few that did survive were most probably saved, by default, as date only examples. That same principle applies to other varieties.

I don't think I'd trust an 1841 without colons, which has been touted as a proof. Although I can't find anything definitive in writing on whether they exist, the only 1841 proofs I've seen (three), which I'd personally accept as being proofs, have had the colons in place. Possibly from the same dies which later were used to produce the much less common, with colon 1841 currency strike. Too strong a possibility that somebody is bumping a nice currency strike as a proof. Plus let's be honest, it wouldn't be difficult to get past the checkers at NGC.

Ian, I think this is an issue which faces all serious numismatists holding a collection which has assumed some considerable value over the years. Although it's more statistically likely you will pass away - for whatever medical reason - as you get older, it can happen at literally any age to anybody. Car crash, unexpected accident or unanticipated sudden severe illness. We none of us know from day to day. Thankfully, it's far more probable than not, that the worst won't happen for a good deal of time yet, and people are living much longer these days. Maybe the way round it is to prepare a numbered inventory of all your coins, with photographs and a description, perhaps in both hard copy and e form, and let a solicitor have it as part of your will. The collection to be handed to a major auction house, with the inventory, in the event of your death, and an agreement with your wife and/or other close relative to effect the transfer of the coins to the auction house. Not necessarily an easy task as collections change and are added to etc. The other potential problem we have is theft. Yes you can insure, but the monetary replacement would come nowhere near the sense of loss from having your collection stolen. Decades of work gone up in smoke, and the pleasure of viewing your collection gone.

Private sale agreed with Ian for this very nice aUNC F78. Now arrived. I must emphasise how (along with quite a few others, none of which have ever been thought of as notably rare) difficult this variety is to obtain almost in any grade, let alone this nice high grade. Thanks a lot Ian. Much appreciated. I might otherwise have been waiting a very very long time.

The 1854 no colons penny is decidedly scarce if not rare. Maybe once or twice a year, an example will present itself somewhere, generally in worn condition.

100% agreed. It's bad enough on a circulated coin, but on one that good, it's sacrilege. At least wear gloves as I've seen one or two do. Fingerprints and other greasemarks might not appear for several more months.

So here are my pics, I'd rate the coin as a straight VF, which is pretty much above the average for this rare piece. I'd already got one, but it's only VG, and cleaned to within an inch of its life. Once again Ian, thanks.

e mail sent Ian.

Unreal. I reckon you could tell them what you like, and it would be accepted as fact.

Let the buyer beware But yes, they are obviously determined to absolve themselves of any responsibility for error in description.

Here's the relevant Noonan's small print:- Not looking too good for any dispute from the buyer.

Don't know - that's an interesting one. Trouble is, as we know from real life experience, what we pretty much know for a fact, often comes across as weak and unconvincing when confronting (in this case) a top auction house. I don't think that saying the TPG company is simply accepting what the slabbing applicant asserts is a particularly effective way forward, as it sounds a tad aggressive. But the buyer could say he'd only just noticed that the coin has no colons after REG, whereas all known 1841 proofs, do have colons after REG. Not sure what Noonans small print has to say on issues such as this. Whatever approach is taken, it's not going to be easy that's for certain.

Talking about Noonans, I'd logged in to bid for the F24, but unfortunately got involved in an idiotic teams call from work, which took up an inordinate amount of time. When the call ended, it was too late. I noted that the hammer price was £900 - actually about the same price as the last F24 went for at LCA a few years ago. Missed out on that as well. £900 for someone. But how much higher would it have gone if I'd been bidding. Given the rarity I think I'd have been happy to max at £1250. At the same time, I noticed that the 1841 penny - probably erroneously slabbed as a proof - went for £2k hammer.

It obviously does, but the individual with the deep pockets and the determination to obtain, will take those of lesser means with him, part of the way, until they drop out, and he has won. Thus gaining the item, but at a much higher price than if he had been completely unopposed. A "bidding war" - the psychology of which is to suck bidders in to fight for items they wouldn't be so bothered about in more sober reflective moments. It can start with several tangoing, not just two.

Crikey - potentially he's in very big trouble given the amount of monay involved. Although of course, we musn't pre-judge ahead of the trial. There may be many unknown facts yet to emerge.