1949threepence

OK, thanks chaps. That's pretty much what I suspected anyway. It's just that I was thumbing through the March 1969 Coin Monthly that Rob kindly sold to me a few weeks ago, and I came across an ad for the Erdington Coin Company's sale of the year, held on Saturday 8th March 1969, at the Acorn Hotel, Erdington, and including a 1933 penny !!! Their commission was just 5% for the seller (10% London Coins), and no mention of a buyer premium. Those were the days.

No, in all fairness I bought it already slabbed. Anyway, here is a photograph on which you can just see the fingerprint at about 7 o'clock. The image also shows the difficulty of photographing through a slab - the coin is about 1000% better than it appears here! Thanks Derek. Two points here:- a) Even if PGS weren't responsible for the fingerprints, they perhaps should wear light gloves when performing the slabbing process to avoid fingerprints on the surrounding plastic. b ) The photographing of coins through slabs is an important one, as once inside, they are not camera friendly, and you don't get a good image. Quite important, certainly as far as eye appeal is concerned, when it comes to selling. I've not seen a good photo of a slabbed coin yet. Pity a more camera friendly slab can't be developed, or else, as both Peck and I suggested in the CGS thread, that it becmes possible to legitimately remove from a slab, and then be able to re-insert, without loss of official grade status. (If the 1894 was busted out of the slab, it might be possible for a fingerprint expert to say whether the prints on the coin and plastic, were from the same individual)

I'm assuming you sent the coin off for slabbing, and there were no fingerprints when it left you ? If so, that is down to sheer carelessness. Pretty unforgivable in the circumstances. I wonder what our friend Bill Pugsley would make of this ?

Well if it is, someone got very careless

Thanks Nick ~ that clearly shows the effect of the die clash.

Is that clashing or ghosting? I have a 1799 halfpenny with similar effect: There appears to be a mirror image of the olive branch below Britannia's outstretched arm, but I believe it's ghosting from the obverse. It may be on yours, Peck. I'm not an expert on these things. But I'm tending to think mine is a genuine die clash. Interestingly, if you look at the same coin in hand, there is considerable evidence of actual ghosting on the reverse, in the same way you see it on many George V pennies and other coins. Victoria's bun can clearly be seen, although this more "traditional" ghosting can't be seen on the pic. It is a die clash. On the obverse you can see Britannia's knees impressed under the Queens chin, and on the reverse you can see the Queens profile to the right of the trident. I hadn't noticed that on the reverse, before you said. Thanks Bob.

Is that clashing or ghosting? I have a 1799 halfpenny with similar effect: There appears to be a mirror image of the olive branch below Britannia's outstretched arm, but I believe it's ghosting from the obverse. It may be on yours, Peck. I'm not an expert on these things. But I'm tending to think mine is a genuine die clash. Interestingly, if you look at the same coin in hand, there is considerable evidence of actual ghosting on the reverse, in the same way you see it on many George V pennies and other coins. Victoria's bun can clearly be seen, although this more "traditional" ghosting can't be seen on the pic.

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins. True. But the way things are going, I could visualise a situation where the lower denominations gradually disappear. The penny is worth less than the 1/2p when it was demonetised, and who really finds much use for the 2p or even 5p now? The 10p probably has less buying power than 1p did in 1971. You see where this is going - small change will become too expensive to manufacture, and people will start to think in 10p or 20p units as the minimum. So revise my prediction to see the 10p or 20p as the smallest denomination in a generation. The cheque is to disappear, most people use plastic or online for much of their transactions, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that before too long, someone will come up with a working alternative to the Mondex experiment. Remember - pre-Euro, the Italians gave sweets as change rather than the worthless smallest lire denominations. And that was a long time ago, I remember it in the 70s! It must surely cost more than 1p to produce a (copper covered steel) penny already? I think you're right. it can't be long until the smallest practical unit of currency becomes the 10p and eventually, a £1. The complications could arise in on line trading, where decimal points might easily remain viable in the absence of specific legislation. Judging by the volume of 1 & 2p's from the late 80's and early 90's still with lustre on them (obviously sitting around unused for long stretches of time), I think we might getaway without minting any, and leave the rest in circulation to gradually die out ? Don't know. Intersting question though. Or as someone said on QI recently, "When are they going to mint a 99p coin to help all those shopkeepers and manufacturers?" I've been raising that point for years, Peck. But nobody took me seriously before ......................

Some evidence of clashed dies on the obverse of this F66:-

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins. True. But the way things are going, I could visualise a situation where the lower denominations gradually disappear. The penny is worth less than the 1/2p when it was demonetised, and who really finds much use for the 2p or even 5p now? The 10p probably has less buying power than 1p did in 1971. You see where this is going - small change will become too expensive to manufacture, and people will start to think in 10p or 20p units as the minimum. So revise my prediction to see the 10p or 20p as the smallest denomination in a generation. The cheque is to disappear, most people use plastic or online for much of their transactions, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that before too long, someone will come up with a working alternative to the Mondex experiment. Remember - pre-Euro, the Italians gave sweets as change rather than the worthless smallest lire denominations. And that was a long time ago, I remember it in the 70s! It must surely cost more than 1p to produce a (copper covered steel) penny already? I think you're right. it can't be long until the smallest practical unit of currency becomes the 10p and eventually, a £1. The complications could arise in on line trading, where decimal points might easily remain viable in the absence of specific legislation. Judging by the volume of 1 & 2p's from the late 80's and early 90's still with lustre on them (obviously sitting around unused for long stretches of time), I think we might getaway without minting any, and leave the rest in circulation to gradually die out ? Don't know. Intersting question though.

I've been suckered into buying two cleaned coins and I'm determined never to buy one again. To me a cleaned coin looks awful, and I don't regard them as worthy of collection status (unless extremely rare). I would rinse the dog muck of a 1933 penny sticking out of a dog turd though. I think you could get away with that without leaving too much trace !!!

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins.

I enquired about the possibility of an 1876 no H via a Freedom of Information Request to the Royal MInt last year. The reply I got can be seen here (see posts 43 & 44) The conclusion was that there were no London Mint 1876 pennies.

Bob, as an American, how do you compare the relative qualities of NGC and CGS ? Do you have experience of both ? Michael, I have a lot of NGC graded coins (and some PCGS and ANAC's), and I think NGC does a good job on U.S. Coins. Coins of Great Britain are another matter, since the grading is not based on a UK system of grading...in fact I am not sure what they use as a grading guide for UK coins. On the other hand, I think CGS does a good job, as far as I have seen, on British coins. The real comparison of coin grading for CGS would be how do they grade U.S. Coins. Would they make the same mistakes on U.S. coins that NGC and others make on UK coins? I don't know, as I have never seen a U. S. Coin graded thus far, by CGS. That would be a good one to check out. What it all boils down to with the two grading systems is, we are not comparing apples to apples...instead apples to oranges!.... Hello Bob, CGS actually recommend that Coins from North America (Canada & USA) be graded by US grading companies as the results are more acceptable to North American collectors. I have just checked the CGS site and it shows that there are five collectors who own 9 CGS Graded USA Coins. I had a quick look and found the following: UIN 0016026 Coin Type 1DSE.USAM.2008.02 Origin United States Description 1 Dollar Silver Eagle 2008 Variety W. Proof Standard References CGS variety 02 Provenance Grade UNC 98 Population Level 1 out of 1 Finest Known I did ask CGS recently had they ever graded a coin at UNC100 and the answer was no - not even proof that had come straight out of a mint's capsule. Very critical grading but I feel consistent. As an aside, I believe all other (than CGS) graders use the Sheldon Scale (developed in North America) which goes from 01 to 70 whereas CGS uses the decimal scale of 01 to 100. Steve Lockett has already publicly stated that NO COIN will ever attain a 100 score because if a better example turned up how could you score it? Seems a bit double Dutch to me, it either scores 100 or it doesn't (ie it is flawless or it isn't)? As 100 represents perfection, and it is impossible to improve on perfection, surely he (Steve Lockett) is implying that a sub perfection coin might be mistakenly graded at 100.

Bob, as an American, how do you compare the relative qualities of NGC and CGS ? Do you have experience of both ?

Hopefully such a notice wold provide an amusing way of driving home the message to stay clear of the platform edge, as high speeds trains can indeed "suck you off", but not in the way most would want.

Not only that, numismatics is one of the world's oldest hobbies I believe? Even royalty has got in on the act at various times. Very true - but it is really wrong to dismiss the recent output of the mint the 50p issues have been very good and will draw coin collectors in for many years to come - the kew gardens 50p for instance. we will need new blood to come into the hobby or it will die, just as surely as collectors lost interest in stamps in the seventies and early eighties The real question is - will collectors move from that market (which relates to proper coin collecting as 'limited edition plates' does to genuine antiques) to 'our' sort of coins? The worrying factor is one that affects both stamps and coins: Stamps have been affected by the fall-off in letter writing, and the vast increase of business franking in place of the traditional stamp. Now that so much is done on the internet, it looks even worse for stamps. The trouble is - the same argument applies to coins. Where circulating currency once represented a serious proportion of the money supply, now it is negligible. I fear we may even see the disappearance of coinage within a generation. One ray of hope : vinyl never quite died, but its recent return to favour still only represents a tiny % of records sold/downloaded. However, 'collectable' vinyl goes from strength to strength. Perhaps people will continue to collect coins as art/antiques even when they've gone out of use as money? Actually, that question has already been answered now I think of it - predecimal coins are as strong as ever but have not been used for decades. That is a possibility, although if it did happen, then by definition, it would also mean the simultaneous demise of currency notes as a medium for the exchange of goods and services. That is a total anathema to me, and, I'm sure, many millions of others, as it would mean that any given individual would be instantly traceable at any time. With the anonymity of straight cash it is still possible to maintain one's privacy to a greater or lesser extent. For that reason, I sincerely hope the abolition of paper currency and coinage never becomes a fact in being. Rather, I do foresee, a five pound coin at some point, as a result of inflation. With regard to the long term viability of the hobby I'm slightly uncertain, but more cup half full than cup half empty. Whilst it would be interesting to see a pictorially represented, pure age demographic of coin collectors, which I don't think is possible as there wouldn't be enough data, I do suspect that many (in this country at any rate) currently belong to the generation born between about 1930 and 1960 ~ in other words those who had experience, even to a very limited extent, of the pre decimal currency, which piqued an interest maintained to this day. The development of the internet gave them a renewed platform for the revival of a youthful hobby, and no doubt serious money to indulge those once cherished BU items on a long put aside wish list. Let's make no mistake here and say that much of that group will be around for a long time to come, and will probably attract new adherents as time goes by. As far as later generations are concerned, well pretty obviously, it's difficult to get too excited about modern currency strikes, with the possible exception of the £2 coin. So for many of my generation and younger, there will never have been that initial impetus to climb aboard the hobby. That said, the "collector mentality", if I may call it that, remains as strong as ever, and I feel sure that a strong untapped.potential for younger people to become numismatists, still exists. With many traditional cash investments not looking too exciting at present, people of all ages are earnestly seeking alternative forms of investment opportunity, and if this can be combined with a new hobby, then you have the best of both worlds. I do think it's a pity that there aren't more coin clubs, which would be an attraction for many budding enthusiasts. You can't do everything over the internet. There remains the much stronger real life experience and interaction, which local coin clubs would undoubtedly offer, and there are numerous church halls and other venues available for monthly hire at very reasonable rates. The problem with coin clubs is that they need a leader ~ someone with the time, energy and commitment to maintain them ~ and provide a focus for their activities. Probably a retired person would best fit this bill, as they don't have the ongoing distraction of work and young children.

Not quite "every" - I'm still waiting for a reply to mine, but I may have a long wait... Are you referring to what I think you are, Peck ~ namely the query about being able to remove a coin from a slab, and re-insert it at a later date, with the certification still intact and available, being capable of cross referencing a bar code to a central record and detailed photo ? That one ? If so, I too would be interested in Bill's views on that possibility, as I drew a blank when I mentioned it in an earlier post.

Video ~

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality. Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation. So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange. With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Agreed, it surely wouldn't come off so easily if it was actual verd. And that's absolutely fair enough, but haven't you ever come across a 20thC bronze with the lightest beginnings of a green 'bloom' that comes away leaving the coin as-new, before it's got more than microscopically into the metal? Or ever acetoned/washed/wiped a coin, whatever your method, and found green residue on the cotton bud/tissue, etc, etc.? I do know for a personal fact that early onset verdigris does quite happily come away from a non-degraded (un-pitted) surface. It's altogether a different animal when the surface of the coin is no longer clearly defined. Namely, when the verdigris and the surface of the coin have started to become one. Anyway, the coin's fine, and I'm pleased! Actually, thinking about it, I did have something odd a couple of months or so ago, that I'd forgotten about, but did post on here at the time. It was on one of my shillings, and appeared greenish in colour, but when I dabbed at it with a cloth, it came away as a powdery substance which left absolutely no trace. I've no idea what it was ~ I wondered if it was the very beginnings of a verd deposit which hadn't yet had time to "establish" itself as you say. Hence the reason I was able to eradicate it so easily. Coins are kept in a Peter Nicholls cabinet in a warm dry room, however. So I see no reason why I should be verd affected.

Agreed, it surely wouldn't come off so easily if it was actual verd.

Really interesting and informed discussion about slabbing here. Whilst I'm not personally that keen on slabbing, I can, nonetheless, see the attraction, especially from an investment perspective. Bill mentioned the threat of competition from the USA, and with this in mind, I wonder if CGS need to more strongly emphasise their attention to detail, willingness to rectify rare errors, and accuracy of grading, in order to gain advantage over US rivals, who might be perceived as sloppy in their approach. Don't know ~ I'm no expert on these matters, but it is something that sprang immediately to mind. Once that aspiration for quality becomes synonymous with the organisation, they might be perceived as the centre of excellence, even to the extent of picking up trade from the US itself (although I appreciate the knowledge and familarity factor with US coins, would be an issue in this country) The other issue about slabbing, which is an obvious bugbear to many ~ and Peck mentioned this ~ is the fact that once coins are slabbed, you can't get them out to look at them without smashing the slab. Also, you can't put them in a cabinet, nor can you look at them properly "in hand". Maybe some innovation could be developed, whereby coins could be detachable from the slab, but nevertheless, remain capable of verification once back inside and ready for trading. A barcode linked to a permanently stored high quality photo on a website, that any buyer could check before buying, to make absolutely certain it was the same coin, for example. Together with a hard copy certificate containing the same information and photo. From what Colin said, it appears there may be a training need/customer service issue with the front facing staff. This is so vitally important to address when dealing with customers. Nobody likes to feel patronised, talked down to, or given technically incorrect information. Straight, easily understandable facts, delivered in a polite and friendly manner, is always a way to champion customer satisfaction. By the way, welcome Bill, and thank you for your outstanding first day's input.

Just going back to the original post in this thread, and point 1 ~ some of the pics used by London coins in their forthcoming auction are so dark you can barely make out anything. Really awful photography. Sorry to abruptly change the subject

Michael Gouby lists a very comprehensive review of the various 1858 penny types. They can be found here He is of the same mind as Rob ~ that 1858/3 does not exist ("very unlikely")