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Rob
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Posts posted by Rob
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I bought the 1566 dated coin with the two different lions in the Comber sale (ex RCCB) which uses the same obverse die. Thus it is reasonable to assume that this obverse die was in use at the turn of the year and your reverse may well be the first 1567 die.
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Not in English either. Why are so many people bi-lingual? Something purporting to be English as their first language, with occasional diversions into English.
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On 8/12/2023 at 10:51 AM, TomGoodheart said:Just in case anyone has a spare(!), I'd be interested in adding a Charles i touchpiece (pierced Angel coin) to my collection.
Have you come into some money? They aren't exactly cheap. Nor are they the sort of thing that you have duplicates of. There can't be too many types/specific marks with multiple examples available. I've been looking for a couple of overmarks for more than 10 years and am still waiting
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6 minutes ago, copper123 said:Many high streets have had their beating hearts ripped out mainly due to covid I am afraid its done the big chains a masive favour and ruined many small cafes et
Its even worse in the bigger places like leeds and manchester starbucks and pretts gallore and don't even mention greggs
I don't - they stopped selling bread a few years ago, and bread is the primary reason I walk to the shops every few days, with additional items purchased subject to the limit imposed by the backpack size.
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Hooray! Good news here. Just having a few days in Norfolk and the hotel says in its welcome pack that payment in cash is welcome and preferred - to avoid paying card fees. (Paying in cash has a lower charge and provides support for retaining the only local bank). They also recommend future bookings be made by direct contact or via their website to save having to pay the £7 a night booking site fee. I might come back for a few days fishing if all goes well.
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Morrieson took the view that as they were issued as a result of the indenture dated 22nd Feb 1637-8 and have an inner circle, this means the inner circle can be taken to have been adopted around this date. (The early coins had no inner circle as per the group E shillings at the tower mint which were struck during tun).
Morrieson was unable to allocate the two lace collar busts to a specific period, and confessed to finding it odd that the two appeared to be concurrent. So it would appear to be for a 2 year period from around the beginning of 1638 to the turn of 1640, but possibly a bit later.
Based on the style of bands/plumes, he believed the small bust paired with a reverse similar to his sixpence no.3 was issued around Christmas 1639.
The legend reading MAG he concluded was produced around the same time as the corresponding shilling, i.e.1639-40.
The armoured bust is known paired with the Oxford reverse, so must have been last. Morrieson dates this 1640 to September 1642 when the mint moved away.
The whole issue would probably benefit from a review of the evidence. There are images of groats in spades thanks to the internet, so it might be possible to corroborate or refute Morrieson's assertions with relative ease because hi-res images allow you to see punch degradation and die wear. With £13069 face produced at Aberystwyth over the 4 years, there should be no shortage of research material.
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Go with your original attribution. Bull does say 4?, so presumably the example he examined was fairly dire. Don't lose any sleep over the number of strings as they can easily get filled. My 1697B halfcrown for example has 1 & 1/2 harp strings, and I'm absolutely certain the die didn't start out with that number.
Another reason for not getting too attached to the number of harp strings is that Jackson-Kent did a 10 year study from 1955-1965 on the harp strings of William III coins and concluded at the end of 10 years that you couldn't conclude anything. Just take the number of strings indicated by Bull to be what he saw and nothing more. He didn't see every coin, so all options are available.
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35 minutes ago, Zo Arms said:Totally agree. My 1878, 14+N halfpenny doesn't have a Freeman number. Does it really need one? It is what it is and can be identified as such.
The problem is that a majority of collectors like a number to assign to a particular variety. It allows them to tick it off once acquired. Date collectors already have it on their coins and as a result many don't feel the need for a reference at all. That's why I keep being asked for 1947 brass threepences, 1923-5 pennies and 1961 halfpennies. Collecting by type or date whatever the condition can also exclude identification of varieties due to the lack of detail. However, a more specialised collection such as a denomination or reign will almost certainly be based on one or more of the major references with the varieties researched.
I have to say that when I published my article on the Weyl patterns in the BNJ over 10 years ago, the first comment from the referee was 'Pearce numbers?' Like your 1878 1/2d, they were easily identified as being what they were and most types appeared to be unique, so I didn't feel the need for yet another list of arbitrary numbers. Unfortunately, a result of not giving numbers is the near total disregard of the article despite having shown the existence of new metal types, the individual rarities of a particular variety and an assigned provenance to each of the coins extant. I feel that had I given each a number, then the reference would likely be used. Referring to the article would also help curtail the diarrhoeic marketing blurb such as that in the last St. James's Premier sale when an 1860 farthing was described as 3-5 known (show me a duplicate), was struck in 1904 (there were examples in Clarkson 1901 and Cholmley 1902).
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2 hours ago, Martinminerva said:Some time ago (pre-pandemic), I think there was some chat on here (but can't find it) that a full re-write of Freeman was being planned incorporating all the new varieties from the 2016 appendices and further subsequent discoveries along with high res colour illustrations. Wonder if that has been taken forward at all? If so, hope it is done as hardback for the reasons mentioned above. Also, even longer ago, I seem to recall talk of a similar update to Davies for the silver... Yes please!
I thought long and hard about this. The conclusion I came to is that no update to any volume can be complete as new varieties come to light, meaning that whatever numbering system for an existing reference is used, is going to become overly complicated with suffixes to existing numbers that are unlikely to be in any rational order starting with the first few recorded additions to the published list. This led me to a very deep rabbit hole.
Rationalising what people need, I realised that any reference cannot be logically organised on a 1, 2, 3, 4 etc numbering system, however simple this might be because of the above problem. A better alternative would be a longer reference along the lines of Gouby's numbering, starting with the date as the root, and finding a logical numbering system for an extension to this to account for the various varieties as they come to light. Just considering Davies and ESC, the former doesn't assign a different number to currency, proof, edge or off-metal strikes of a given denomination and date, whilst the latter is now just a mess, given the issues with proof-like being assigned a different number, despite being a regular currency coin and the obvious lack of proof-reading which has now consigned to print a large number of glaring inconsistencies. Both leave no room for later inclusions. A date ordered system would necessarily lead to long reference numbers, hence the need for intuitive extension references, but I do think it would appeal to the completist mentality inherent in most of us. It would not solve the problem of what some consider varieties such as the listing of various dots on pennies whilst others don't for example. Whatever system is adopted, it will have its critics.
Given the complication involved, anything along the lines of the above would probably be best served as a number of publications, each done for a specific denomination. Some would be large, others a single page. The next issue would then be how too deal with undated coins in a systematic way.
A disadvantage of any comprehensive detailed reference is the limited number of people to which it would appeal. Collectors are a diverse bunch, with relatively few interested in any particular sphere, even allowing for the disproportionate number of penny collectors on this forum. Any printed published reference has to have sufficient prospective buyers to justify the costs, though obviously a digital database is infinitely updatable.
Another option that might be worth considering is a concordance of references. Whilst that would not help with unrecorded varieties, it would bring the various references under one roof, including those of relatively obscure specialist studies, but even this would be a considerable volume.
Taken to its logical conclusion, what all this leads to is a register of all identifiable individual dies based on the observations of every contributor.
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2 hours ago, Master Jmd said:It's such a beautiful coin. I don't know if I would have been able to win this one, but I'm gutted I missed out on the chance to participate by just 3 weeks. 😅 It's not too bad looking back on things which have sold 2 or 3 years ago that came and went before I rekindled my appreciation for coins, but this very much feels like one which has slipped through my fingers.
Hopefully one day I'll get another chance!
Should be possible. Only 2 of the 9 on my list are definitely in museums - the BM and Hunterian, though one or more could have slipped under the radar since their last appearance at auction.
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2 hours ago, Master Jmd said:I'm sad that I missed this one. Not only does it look like it'd have been a fantastic auction to watch, I've dreamed of owning one of these 1601 patterns since first seeing them in The Alderly Collection which Colin Cooke sold back in 2006-7.
That Sanders coin is one that I can't reconcile with those on my list.
Peck examined 6 - the BM (ex Devonshire), the Hunterian, the Foster coin (ex Pembroke, Nicholson, Alderley and mine), his own which went to Norweb, Rogers (ex Alderley with a distinctive flaw) and Parsons (ex Weightman). There was a pierced example in Baldwin's 44 from the basement (lot 589) and the Wilkinson coin (DNW 114 lot 1253) making this a 9th example on my list.
Anyway, just for you.
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That description is completely screwed up. First line says 1 of only 2 known. Last line says almost a certainly a one-off. OK. And the provenance descriptions say brilliant; brilliant; and Peck says mint state. This will be the A H F Baldwin coin. The last one is right, though not helped by the Baldwin 77 sale provenance given as all the wrong ones. A saleroom notice is required, methinks.
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That person is a bit iffy - full of BS. Ask Azda who called him out.
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Don't think it is die fill, as there's no sign of it on my example.
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Yes please, when you're done with it.
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Although the loss of physical evidence is unfortunate, it wouldn't be so bad if there was a mechanism for retaining the provenance on the slab - but they rarely do and half the time get it wrong. I bought the original silver strike with the wide raised rim reverse in DNW a year ago which as far as I am aware is the Moore piece with the longest provenance, being ex Carter, Peck, Magnay, Adams and a few anonymous sales since then. Unfortunately for the documentation, it's a superb example, so lost all its tickets once slabbed, which included a Carter ticket when Colin had the coin. Anyway, it's now out of a slab again with a ticket that records all the info.
Still looking for a gilt obverse C with the no legend reverse if anyone knows where the Adams 186 coin is? I haven't seen it since 2013.
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Pity. It had mine, 2 x Adams and a Seaby from 1980 for £375.
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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:.....and here it is. An 1860 restrike gilt copper pattern penny by Moore for Shorthouse. Very pleased. Peck 2115, Freeman 842.
Provenance:-
To Coinery N/K (lot 38 Coinery auction 29th July 2023 - link
Ex: Ian Sawden collection (lot 157, DNW auction 12th October 2021)
Ex: Colin Adams collection (lot 171, Spink auction 23rd July 2003)
Ex: D.E.Magnay collection (lot 276, DNW auction 3rd February 1999: bt Seaby April 1980)
And ex me. I bought it in the Adams sale and sold it off the website in September 2009.
Did it come with the tickets? It left me with 4.
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1 hour ago, oldcopper said:Separate from the proofs of course, but I wonder how they were stored or given to people as quite a few of each variety were made. Or perhaps the Mint just stuck them in a cupboard for a long time, but they must have sold them/given them away at some stage.
I think they would be given to each member of the committee who took the decision which designs to put forward for adoption, together with some for Victoria. It's illogical to assume a wider circulation for the public given they would not be privy to prospective designs, so IMO the ESC rating of R2 for most varieties is hopelessly out. The R5 rating for the double reverses is probably about right for the number of people involved in the decision.
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The evidence suggests the florins weren't issued as a set for the reasons I have outlined previously. You can't exclude that partial sets were possibly given to a few people, but all 28 varieties - no. These were clearly made to test the waters on the best obverse/reverse die and legend combinations.
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Just had an email asking if I wanted to buy this. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325752414044?hash=item4bd85b5f5c:g:~cMAAOSwyDxkx-Mb&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Ic%2B6ncSccSicmhQLB3VpaxkbbT73mx4FRBfjFBKYPC6lRMqyAe%2Fcb3dySR1trTUx%2B5WvyMkI2scM3JQnqsu%2F15gVp8s0kP0VSPf7rz4KBEJRwcDU1g%2F3UNYBGqfx2FmXe6cBpdCLo8F%2BEynv9L5s1jf6zql%2BLUbdFK6%2B7w4orBrlEEclYegKIHoo7YNjVsEocaAAFYxbAPyJkrXD%2F1YnyczDD6fU5vS8PEIIhWw98HEHLVkWtOkVjJC%2B%2FoSojGo26x7eBokcPNOhwwJhjcSDd5rCfFchYQlPQFhNqqUhuDj|tkp%3ABk9SR5i8qZ62Yg
I told her it wasn't a forgery, and just a strip end. I suggested she take down the listing and list it for what it is. Hopefully won't have to report it, but we shall see.
The problem with ebay is the number of willing idiots, all desperate to splash the cash on things they don't understand. A company that disregards it's own rules or anyone reporting items in order to make a buck, and a long queue of sellers looking to sell crap at moonmoney prices.
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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:You may well be right.
I can't speak for denominations other than the penny, but it appears there is only one confirmed 1853 bronzed copper with an inverted reverse penny.
What I do wonder about is the number of en medaille 1853 copper proof pennies. There were only 40 proof sets minted, but there has to be more than 40 extant proof pennies even now. Possibly as many as 40 again. So what is the reason for them? Were they ordered separately by members of the public after the original sets had been issued, for those who couldn't afford a full set?
I susoect we will never know the answers to thse questions unless, possibly, some obscure newspaper article turns up, or some official mint briefing is found.
The 1853 bronzed halfpenny also appears to be one confirmed. Forget the Norweb coin which is definitely copper - because I've got it. It's the oddball 1839 sixpence which I think is the real clue. I can't see the last young head die being made other than from 1880 on, and certainly not in 1839 whence it sat on the shelf for the next 40 years. That has to mean a late strike. We know that the 1839 sets were not all made in that year because of the 39/41 & 39/43 halfpennies plus the above 6d. My money is still on the production of a few sets prior to the mint refurbishment in 1882, with one or more 1853 sets also produced.
The same might also apply to the inverted die copper 1860 penny that went through London Coins, because we know that the die still existed, it currently being in the RM Museum collection. The same applies to the 1860 copper halfpenny and farthing dies. The latter have always been considered late strikings.
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34 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:Excellent and really interesting couple of articles though.
The question of the 1853 bronzed proofs has occupied my mind one more than one occasion since the article was written.
A stumbling block in resolving the outstanding questions is the images in Baldwin's 44 catalogue are not good enough to determine the positions of the pitting to the reverse rim on the 1853 bronzed halfpenny, which is unfortunate as the 1839/41 bronzed proof in my possession also has a pitted rim. If in the same positions, it would imply the same reverse die and by extension that quite possibly the two dates are contemporary.
Following my acquisition of the 1841/39 bronzed proof halfpenny in 2007 I wrote an article in the May 2009 Circular outlining some thoughts for the existence of the dozen or so known inverted die 1841 halfpennies, which are all struck from the same worn reverse die and point to a striking for a specific reason. The bronzed 1853s have an inverted die axis, as does the 1839/41. As the anomalous 1839 proof sixpence is struck from an obverse that was only used from 1880 on and similarly has the wrong die axis, speculatively I wonder if the non-standard die axis coins are all from this late period. Assuming they were from sets made to order before the mint was refurbished and the old Soho equipment replaced, with a maximum window of 2 years for the sixpence, it would point to a minimal number of the other coins - as is seen.
It would also help to know if the die fixings were compatible on both the Soho presses and their replacements.
I can't help feeling that all the information is currently known, but different bits are in different places.
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Maybe there is some input required by the auctioneer to permit flat fee charges? I paid £3 with Lockdales this week for example. The only time I opted for the % fee was when the only lot I was bidding on was going to be £50 max.
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1567 REGNA LION 6d
in British Hammered
Posted · Edited by Rob
I thought you'd ask for that - the original image is 551K, so had to reduce it.
There's potentially something to ponder here, namely is 29 a knackered 26? The lis are not well struck up, but overall is somewhere between 26 and 29 - say 27.5! The top lis have full arms, so are 26, but the bottom ones show some sign of degradation, but not a full 29 as yours.