Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook


The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.


  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Posts posted by oldcopper

  1. I've just checked and the illustration of the pre-enhanced version of the 1770 proof halfpenny ex Gregory has now been removed from the PGCS website. It was PR65RB, but only one different one is now shown in that classification. It is now PR65+BN, so I suppose it has gained a plus but lost the RB designation, in my opinion a downgrade. A little spot on the neck was a useful pointer. The old version will still be on the CNG archive on sixbid early to mid 2018

    So why did they remove it, was it at the behest of the dealer who enhanced it, and didn't want anyone finding out? it would be interesting to see PCGS's reason for removing it from their site, not that they'd ever give it of course.

    I'm not saying the third party grading services are dishonest, in the main I'm sure they're very professional, but it's only going to be human nature to push slightly up rather than down if there's wiggle room for an important client  This is easier to do as the grade difference at present doesn't have to be very much to make all the difference to the price, especially in the upper echelons. And all those extra classifications and increments on top of the number grades are just more subjectiveness - cameo, ultra cameo, plus, plus plus, gold star etc etc and are designed to create extra bigger price tiers and value. And it's working.

  2. 23 hours ago, azda said:

    Dave is the name lol. Who is buying, well there is a Greek guy who has some high grade halves, I believe he would have been involved in this bidding, whether he got it or not is another story.

    The craving for high slab numbers is ridiculous right now, fuelled by certain people on YT and Heritage marketing. I get the feeling this side of the market is rigged. I knew a guy who paid 10k for a Geo IIII proof half Sov, Heritage wanted him to consign it, he had got it graded and came back as the finest but not Cameo designated, he said he felt it was Ultra cameo or wards to that effect, he said if it was graded as such that he would submit it.

    Heritage sent it off to NGC and low and behold it came back as the Ultra Cameo he and Heritage asked for,  it sold for $26,400, the hype for high grade half Sovereigns right now is real.


    There's more incentive to upgrade by even a bit if there's a large financial incentive to do it. This is the problem when the market become overly grade influenced. And people who use the grading services more often will get more leeway, as they are pumping more money into the grading service. It's I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine - in other words a racket.

    I've mentioned before about some companies breaking coins out of slabs to get them hopefully graded higher. It can backfire occasionally. One company took a beautiful 1770 proof halfpenny (ex Gregory 1, May 2006 originally later ex JJ Kern CNG 2018), then "enhanced" it and it came back a grade lower! Unlucky! Why they even thought of enhancing it I don't know, the slab needed replacing of course but the coin from my memory was stunning. And both versions of the coin were on the PCGS website as well last time I looked!

    Talking of silly prices $15,600 for a PR66 BN 1839 proof penny, there's a bit of discolouration around the truncation as well:


  3. 23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

    Very pleased with lot No 543 won at the DNW auction earlier this week. It's an 1856 small date PT penny in virtually BU, with extensive lustre. There is unfortunately a detracting mark on the reverse, without which I think it would have fetched a bit more.  But still a really nice coin.  

    small date 1856 obv cropped.jpg

    small date 1856 rev cropped a.jpg

    This coin was in the first Sovereign Rarities auction of 2018 (1,300 hammer + 5% import duty). Very bright on the whole..


    • Like 2

  4. 48 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

    Exactly that Richard. I meant the F1. The F7 was a bargain at £500, given that it looks virtually flawless with magnificent lustrous toning.

    Yes, the 1864 was a great buy. As was the 1869 (lot No 553) which went for £1300. That too was a peach, which if I'd had some leftover cash, I'd have gone for.

    Interestingly, the F82 (lot 556) went for £480. It's about on a par with the same coin from the Alderley collection, which I got for £250 in 2014 off e bay, without juice.  

    Did you see the F7 in person, because DNW weren't so complementary about it - "sometime cleaned with surfaces somewhat dull".

    It would have been interesting to see the ""cleaned but now retoned" 1853 penny proof, because it was difficult to tell much from the photo. Might have been a pleasant colour, might not!

  5. 2 hours ago, Nick said:

    I don't think so.  The 1839 proof halfcrown has two overlapping border teeth just below the date and the currency halfcrown does not.

    Not that I'm an expert on halfcrowns, but is the proof from the sets the same variety as the currency? According to ESC, the standard proof is A1 (one ornate fillet, one plain), but the currency here is A3 - two plain fillets, which also has its own proof version.

  6. 17 hours ago, VickySilver said:

    I think those may have been die polish marks - the piece is graded PCGS 64 (may be under graded at that?)  and very colourful with real and natural toning - not a coin I could touch nowadays. The apparent marks on the rim are from the original planchet. Colin Cooke very much was enthusiastic about the coin and I still am. These days I have to plan VERY carefully on purchases.

    This is coin # 121002 on the PCGS site.

    Do you think these milled edge pieces were struck from spent proof dies? That makes more sense to me than specially making a die to strike only a handful of coins.

    Although you can't see any hairlines on your coin, there might be some very faint die polish lines if it was struck with a proof die. Perhaps that's what Glens picked up at a certain angle of light.

  7. 15 hours ago, copper123 said:

    William IV farthings in the absolute top grades are really well sort after , most fetch over £100 there does seem to be a lot of them around but most are in good fine or less , with a few nicer ones in GVF and lower.

    The smallest bit of wear on Williams bonce loses the coin a lot of value.

    High grade examples tend to just stay for ever in good collections or be sold by the london auction houses .

    Ebay is pretty useless for high grade William farthings as well , you have to wade through piles and piles of rubbish to find anything decent

    A dealer told me that all the bright 1841 halfpennies and the smaller number of the 1834 farthings were found in a box in India.

    Quite a few of these BU farthings have come onto the market in the last 10 yeas or so, so I'm surprised that Colin Cooke's collection seemed to have one (and they're of the 1834 variety that was always thought the scarcer one I think), as he must have got hold of his well before 2005. 

  8. 1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

    Its was grade CGS 65 GEF which was the highest graded of the 9 they had done and the best one i found while looking , the buyer told me the best he had seen.

    Although like most ,you never know what someone may have hidden away 😃

    Thanks Pete, nice coin. Now if only the person who put away all those bright 1834 farthings had done it instead with 1831 WW pennies. There's a thought! 

    • Like 2

  9. 7 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

    Well I can't say this coin is definitively "lost" and I'm hoping it does get returned, but just unfortunate that it's gone wrong. Will the real Mr Hopkins please stand up !!!

    Mistakes happen. 

    It's an 1831 .w.w penny in not bad condition for a very reasonable price, which I won at the June Kleeford coin auction.   


    real mr hopkins.PNG

    Slightly off-topic, good luck with the return, but this is one of the hardest of all copper pennies to get in top grade, far rarer thus than the 1837, 1849, 1860. Even the 27 and both 43 varieties are known in very lustrous condition. I know of no lustrous or unc. examples of the .W.W (though there's a nice one in lustrous unc in the BM). The Alderney example seemed to have edge problems and Colin Adams' was middle grade.

  10. 7 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

    Managed to get hold of a March 1974 Coin Monthly, which was one I suddenly realised was missing. Lo and behold there is an article in there about the 1858/3 penny, by one L.J.Bamford, who I assume is actually the late Laurie Bamford. Excellent article which I've photographed so it can be read by those possibly interested in it. 

    He also mentioned the 1854/3.


    overrated overdate 1a cropped.jpg

    overrated overdate 2 cropped.jpg

    I notice from Edward Judson's collection (DNW March 2002), an interesting comment for Lot 519, containing 2 1858 pennies, one the postulated 8/3 overdate:

    "The very fine example is sold with Judson's original ticket stating the overdate as 1858 over 2; the wording on the ticket infers that it was acquired with a certification letter to this effect from the Royal Mint [now missing]"

    So it sounds like the RM also analysed this variety and came to the same conclusion as Gouby did some time later.


  11. 21 hours ago, copper123 said:

    House prices have risen nearly 30% in my area in the last year allbeit from a low base.According to zoopla anyway.

    My god this thread would be at home in the daily Mail

    Just quickly, sorry, this is off the thread of coin cabinets. 

    Everything else can go to rack and ruin just so long as house prices keep going up...seems to be the last twenty years plus of government strategy.

    I think there are two factors - first all these people who used to commute to London want a place in the country now, so they can Zoom everything and maybe pop into the office only now and again. And secondly, where has all that excess money the government has been printing and borrowing gone? - into asset prices (including coins) and the stock market so far, not yet that much into consumables, though oil's going up.

    So government inflation CRP and asset inflation would appear to be two different things. And if inflation really rears its ugly head with all this excess money now slushing around, how much are the government going to keep interest rates pegged down to protect the housing market, in the process destroying the value of people's savings?

    • Like 1

  12. 7 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

    Why We Don't Wear White Gloves When Handling Rare Coins | Baldwins Coins - YouTube

    Something a bit different and people have opinions about , after reading  posts on here over the years.



    Yes, I saw it the other day - though of course being dealers they are less fussed about long-term degradation of coins via surface contamination (the coins have long ago been sold by the time that would have an effect), but granted, edge knocks are an immediate effect for anyone! Provided the trays are wide enough that they can fully get their fingers around the edges of the coin before picking it up, that's pretty important. otherwise it's almost unavoidable for fingers to intrude over the rim.

    I did raise my eyebrows when they mentioned that wisps of cotton fabric from cotton gloves could cause hairlines. I can't ever see how that could happen!

    Also it depends on the metal - lustrous copper or bronze need a lot more care in handling than say, toned silver or gold.

    • Like 1

  13. 8 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

    Yes, I seem to recall that such a specimen was posted on here some time ago. In fact, it looked for all the world as though it had 30 years wear, rather than the maximum just less than 10.     

    Perhaps it was what they like to call a "pocket piece". So maybe not circulated.

  14. 10 hours ago, secret santa said:

    I've never seen a specimen well worn through circulation as per every other date so that must mean something ? Although, if the bronze coins were issued soon after, maybe they wouldn't have circulated for very long anyway.

    So, actually, I've added nothing of value to the debate.

    There have been a couple of pretty ropey ones put through SNC over the decades. I can definitely remember one in fine or worse. Perhaps it should have marketed as - "almost unknown in this state of preservation". I'll look it up.

    I can't imagine they weren't initially produced for circulation (though what we see today must have mainly been put aside as Rob says) as they are a rather substandard issue - askew die axis, bad die clashing seen on all specimens, degraded lettering (more apparent on some than others), the partially blocked date and flatness of Britannia's breast on many. Also, the only instance in the copper or bronze series where two numbers in the date are overstruck rather than the more prevalent one (OK, for the pedants - excepting the 43 or 41(?)/39 proof halfpennies). So all very makeshift.

    Due to the massive bronze production of the early 1860's, most copper would have been exchanged or put aside by 1864 I would guess.


    • Like 1

  15. I heard a good joke on Classic FM a few years back. Yes I know, an unlikely source:

    Two friends, an Englishman and a Frenchman both own cats. The Englishman's is call "One Two Three" and the Frenchman's "Un Deux Trois".

    One day, they decide to race their cats against each other over the English Channel - One Two Three starting from Dover, Un Deux Trois from Calais. Whoever's cat gets across the channel first wins.

    Come the big day, both cats set off, a few hours later One Two Three reached France, but even by the next day there's no sign of Un Deux Trois.

    The Englishman phones up his friend to find out what happened.

    Well, Un Deux Trois cat sank.....

    • Haha 2

  16. 17 hours ago, Diaconis said:

    Interesting chat about slabbing


    I saw this the other day - well done and appreciate them doing it, but as usual the  key drawback  of slabs (to me) is not mentioned - it's not so much whether you can handle the coin in question, but that you can't enjoy the coin in directly reflected light. So it's much harder to appreciate the brilliance or beautiful multi-coloured toning, say, of an old proof, as you're mostly seeing the light reflection off the plastic which drowns much of that out. 

    • Like 3

  17. I noticed DNW or the seller didn't bother much with putting the coins the right way up or even in their right pockets. But they did show the empty boxes which must be a first.

    Still, it obviously worked as each set went for about £200 each - and they're both missing the crown's ribbon shock horror. Strangely, the owner must have had a problem with these.


  18. 20 minutes ago, Mr T said:

    Is it still published? And is it anywhere on the Spink website? Google gives me a couple of hints, both of which are dead links.

    SNC's final issue staggered out at the start of 2014, and it had been getting more infrequent in the couple of years before that. It used to be 6 a year (and every month long ago). The bloke in charge unfortunately had a serious car accident at the time which was the final blow.

    It's not on Spink's website. 

    • Like 1