oldcopper

Yes, it's a fantastic example as they go, but as you say far too marked to justify that grade. It was the jackpot for someone! It would have been nice to get some background info on S. Burchall, whose 200-year-old collection this was. DNW didn't reveal his name when they originally auctioned his coins, so why now? I will ask them the next time I see them.

I think it went for £440 on checking my catalogue, and it went for £900 this time. I quite fancied it but dropped out at £800, beautiful green toning and only one other known according to Martin's survey. Of course I didn't even give it a second glance at that Baldwins sale.

And Colin had all the patterns as well, very comprehensive. It may be that as Ian Sawden only collected the majority of this stuff in a 3 or 4 year window in general about 10 years ago, so he just got hold of as nice stuff as possible that (a) was available at the time, and (b) that he wasn't outbid on. So quite an achievement in that brief timespan. I'm surprised he got so much of his stuff from London Coins if he lived abroad, because they don't have online bidding, so he would have had to get someone to bid for him each time, unless he was temporarily living in the UK at the time. Still he certainly scored with those florin patterns, many bought from LC! One thing he did miss out on (unless he bought and sold it) was the lot immediately following the gilt twopence in the DNW 2010 sale. This was the lustrous currency 2d which went for £850 hammer. It then turned up at Heritage Auctions 6 months later slabbed as an MS66 RB (despite a noticeable depression in the field on the obverse) and fetched > $7000! Now why didn't I bid on that......

Fantastic stuff and curious why Ian Sawden limited his Soho collection to pre-1800, so no 1805 patterns or proofs etc of the 1806/7 issue. Was it personal preference? Excepting the 1780 Droz halfpennies and proofs of similar template to currency pieces, there were few distinctive patterns either, especially pennies - just one helmeted Britannia and one large head 1797 cartwheel penny (and that a restrike) for instance. The 1831 .W.W. went for nearly £1500 all in! One of the nicer ones of course, but still relatively marked compared to the better examples of the main varieties. Mine has an interesting raised die flaw above the last reverse colon, have seen it occasionally elsewhere. Here's LC's only photographed example of another one (not mine):

I wonder who won lot 101, did it carry on to the next page? "Cards" must have meant something else, as gilding them seems a little excessive! Anyone got any bronzed envelopes?

It's in his BNJ 1967 Addendum: https://www.britnumsoc.org/images/PDFs/1967_BNJ_36_26j.pdf

Peck thought the RM produced them in December of that year, as the Mint had been closed for 10 months from Feb for reconstruction, as a small issue to "tide over till the following year".

yes, that would be a reassurance!

Isn't it a unique die combination as well for an 1882 penny? Excuse my ignorance as I haven't got any coin book to hand.

Yes, amazing to think people would have still been alive who lived through the issue of some of these coins.

https://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital BNJ/pdfs/2011_BNJ_81_7.pdf

Only to avoid confusing words! - it's strange how the term "bronzing" came to be used, as it looks nothing like bronze, and the coating presumably has nothing in common with bronze either (ie no tin or zinc, which would yellow it). Perhaps it could have been a more general term back then for adulterated copper?

I downloaded your article sometime back - excellent and very comprehensive. No copyright fees I hope! And I see you're in the DNW Hall of Fame with several mentions in the Ian Sawden collection. Talking of which, that's a steep estimate for the Weyl copper milled edge penny. £3-4K. And the premium etc for this auction is effectively a third as there's import duty as well. So £4-5+K in reality. Fantastic looker though as are all of his Weyls.

Yes, Dolley quoted someone in a paper who referred to a "purple solution" that had been used at Soho to immerse the blanks in to produce this bronzed finish. It's surprising that no official bronzed proof coins have been made since the mid 19th century, given that that was the finish of choice for the first half of the 19th century. I wonder why they went off it? I've got a P1335 1806 penny which looks identical in appearance to Taylor's golden bronze finish - this series (KP33 or 34?) is also plain edge and in a range of metals on rusted usually underweight blanks from over-polished dies. So some pointers to non-Soho restrikes perhaps, though the gilding on the gilt specimen in Gregory II was good quality, and the bronzed one in Gregory I (which I also have ex Alderney) is far more bronzed-looking (ie dark chocolate) in the traditional fashion though.

I think the secret died in the 19th century, and no official bronzed proofs have been made after 1867 (though some say some 1877 farthings are bronzed - that would need to be seen in the flesh.

Have you checked it for bugs?

Look back in the thread. This one's a MS64BN, but Jackson's (Spink USA 2014) looked more lustrous and was MS64RB from memory. So comparable at least. I wonder if either of them is Noble's mint state coin referred to by Peck, sold 1973.

Yes, I was going to mention that as well! Looks like the Autumn sales are suddenly looking a lot better on the copper front, but I don't know how reasonable the prices will be - have to wait and see on that one.

Thanks Pete, sounds like they've got some nice coins there. I'll check it out.

No, I think it's different having just checked. The Jackson coin (17th June 2014, lot 1053) went for $21,000, didn't have the small spot in front of the neck, and looked more lustrous as well, though often difficult to tell from photography (it was graded MS64RB).

I wonder if that's the Gerald Jackson example sold Spink USA in 2014.

In this case it was deslabbed, "enhanced" and then submitted (as basically a new coin).

and the drapery is correct.

I've just checked and the illustration of the pre-enhanced version of the 1770 proof halfpenny ex Gregory has now been removed from the PGCS website. It was PR65RB, but only one different one is now shown in that classification. It is now PR65+BN, so I suppose it has gained a plus but lost the RB designation, in my opinion a downgrade. A little spot on the neck was a useful pointer. The old version will still be on the CNG archive on sixbid early to mid 2018 So why did they remove it, was it at the behest of the dealer who enhanced it, and didn't want anyone finding out? it would be interesting to see PCGS's reason for removing it from their site, not that they'd ever give it of course. I'm not saying the third party grading services are dishonest, in the main I'm sure they're very professional, but it's only going to be human nature to push slightly up rather than down if there's wiggle room for an important client This is easier to do as the grade difference at present doesn't have to be very much to make all the difference to the price, especially in the upper echelons. And all those extra classifications and increments on top of the number grades are just more subjectiveness - cameo, ultra cameo, plus, plus plus, gold star etc etc and are designed to create extra bigger price tiers and value. And it's working.

There's more incentive to upgrade by even a bit if there's a large financial incentive to do it. This is the problem when the market become overly grade influenced. And people who use the grading services more often will get more leeway, as they are pumping more money into the grading service. It's I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine - in other words a racket. I've mentioned before about some companies breaking coins out of slabs to get them hopefully graded higher. It can backfire occasionally. One company took a beautiful 1770 proof halfpenny (ex Gregory 1, May 2006 originally later ex JJ Kern CNG 2018), then "enhanced" it and it came back a grade lower! Unlucky! Why they even thought of enhancing it I don't know, the slab needed replacing of course but the coin from my memory was stunning. And both versions of the coin were on the PCGS website as well last time I looked! Talking of silly prices $15,600 for a PR66 BN 1839 proof penny, there's a bit of discolouration around the truncation as well: https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/world-coins/great-britain-victoria-proof-penny-1839-pr66-brown-ngc-/a/3094-34794.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515