[kaiser nine]

Hi everyone.Newbie here.I know there is a specific sub forum for newbies but I thought I'd post here so more experts would see.Mods, please feel free to move my topic to the beginners sub forum.
I am an absolute beginner so please excuse my ignorance.
After inheriting some money recently I thought it better to invest it rather have it sat in a bank.I bought a quantity of gold and silver bullion coins and I have to say I have now been bitten by the bug.
The down side of that is I made a beginners mistake when I bought a 1829 gold sovereign on ebay which the seller listed as grade VF+.Thinking I was getting a bargain I paid 360 quid for it.I've since had it graded and was told it's merely good to fine and was worth 200.Does this sound about right?
Also,I recently received an "exclusive 10 day offer" in the post from a company called the Windsor Mint offering the new 20 pound Commemorative coin for 5 quid, reduced from 40.What are peoples thoughts on the Windsor Mint?Do they offer value for money?
I've visited their web site and their prices for gold sovereigns and pre decimal proof sets seem to be way marked up?
And finally what are peoples thoughts on the 2008 20p mule?I've seen loads of these on ebay with most fetching around 50 quid.Are they worth investing in?
Many thanks.

p.s Please excuse my using the terms "quid" and "pounds".My keyboard, bizarrely, does not have a pound sign.Maybe my keyboard manufacturer knows something I don't.

[Peter]

Welcome to the forum
You got burnt on Ebay...unless you are experienced I would't attempt to buy anything over £20.
If you want to buy use trustworthy dealers and be prepared to bargain.
All those glossy mint companies will rip you off...avoid (that includes the Royal Mint)
These modern issues are seriuosly overpriced.
You are playing a dangerous game regarding investment....buy a few books and read up on the subject.
The 20p mules started off at £20/30 then after the press picked them up they reached £300 and now have dropped to £50/60.
I expect them to drop further....they are not so rare.

My tip for the future is Rolf Harris limited edition prints on canvas even I don't collect and pretend I'm investing.

[kaiser nine]

Peter, on 08 March 2010 - 07:30 PM, said:

Welcome to the forum
You got burnt on Ebay...unless you are experienced I would't attempt to buy anything over £20.
If you want to buy use trustworthy dealers and be prepared to bargain.
All those glossy mint companies will rip you off...avoid (that includes the Royal Mint)
These modern issues are seriuosly overpriced.
You are playing a dangerous game regarding investment....buy a few books and read up on the subject.
The 20p mules started off at £20/30 then after the press picked them up they reached £300 and now have dropped to £50/60.
I expect them to drop further....they are not so rare.

My tip for the future is Rolf Harris limited edition prints on canvas even I don't collect and pretend I'm investing.

Thanks for the advice Peter.Much appreciated.
Whats that saying about a fool and his money again?Don't answer that,I know.
An expensive lesson learned re ebay.
As for my bullion coins purchase I reckon I should be ok,the way the economy is I reckon gold and silver will continue to head up.
Regarding the mules,I read the London Mint have bought 10,000 from the general public and are now looking for another 15,000.
Anyway heres a couple of pics of my expensive lesson.

Attached thumbnail(s)

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[azda]

If i were you i'd ask the seller for your money back

[kaiser nine]

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

If i were you i'd ask the seller for your money back

I could but I know what the answer would be.The description on ebay read "I'm no expert,but I believe this coin to be graded as....",which I assume basically covers the seller in that he/she hasn't deliberately misled and has sold it in good faith.
I've had a look on this site at the different grade examples and I'd judge it closest to fine,but then I'm no expert .

[azda]

It sounds like thats exactly what he's done, i assume he really knew it was'nt in the particular grade he stated and used wording and the pics to "judge for yourself" but dropped in the grade to entice, there is a lot of that on ebay, so if you don't want to get your fingers burnt take a little time to study pics and grading, that way it will then only be you to blame for future mistakes, but don't make them so costly next time.

Gold has always bullion value anyway, so you won't lose a huge amount on what you bought.

[kaiser nine]

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:11 PM, said:

It sounds like thats exactly what he's done, i assume he really knew it was'nt in the particular grade he stated and used wording and the pics to "judge for yourself" but dropped in the grade to entice, there is a lot of that on ebay, so if you don't want to get your fingers burnt take a little time to study pics and grading, that way it will then only be you to blame for future mistakes, but don't make them so costly next time.

Gold has always bullion value anyway, so you won't lose a huge amount on what you bought.

Yeh,the seller also included the Spink valuations for the grades VF and EF as at 2006.Stating 475 and 1000 quid respectively.Hence at the VF+ grade I thought I was buying I expected it to be worth somewhere between those two values amd so thought 360 quid was a bargain.

[Peckris]

kaiser nine, on 08 March 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:11 PM, said:

It sounds like thats exactly what he's done, i assume he really knew it was'nt in the particular grade he stated and used wording and the pics to "judge for yourself" but dropped in the grade to entice, there is a lot of that on ebay, so if you don't want to get your fingers burnt take a little time to study pics and grading, that way it will then only be you to blame for future mistakes, but don't make them so costly next time.

Gold has always bullion value anyway, so you won't lose a huge amount on what you bought.

Yeh,the seller also included the Spink valuations for the grades VF and EF as at 2006.Stating 475 and 1000 quid respectively.Hence at the VF+ grade I thought I was buying I expected it to be worth somewhere between those two values amd so thought 360 quid was a bargain.

Unfortunately, clicking on your thumbnails expands to an even smaller picture, so it's not easy to tell. But from what I can see, the coin looks a MINIMUM of Fine (Good to Fine is half a grade LESS than Fine). It could even be higher, but probably not VF. You'd need to post a better picture to be sure.

I think it has been overgraded, but possibly not by as much as you're thinking.

[azda]

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

This post has been edited by azda: 08 March 2010 - 09:58 PM

[kaiser nine]

Peckris, on 08 March 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

kaiser nine, on 08 March 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:11 PM, said:

It sounds like thats exactly what he's done, i assume he really knew it was'nt in the particular grade he stated and used wording and the pics to "judge for yourself" but dropped in the grade to entice, there is a lot of that on ebay, so if you don't want to get your fingers burnt take a little time to study pics and grading, that way it will then only be you to blame for future mistakes, but don't make them so costly next time.

Gold has always bullion value anyway, so you won't lose a huge amount on what you bought.

Yeh,the seller also included the Spink valuations for the grades VF and EF as at 2006.Stating 475 and 1000 quid respectively.Hence at the VF+ grade I thought I was buying I expected it to be worth somewhere between those two values amd so thought 360 quid was a bargain.

Unfortunately, clicking on your thumbnails expands to an even smaller picture, so it's not easy to tell. But from what I can see, the coin looks a MINIMUM of Fine (Good to Fine is half a grade LESS than Fine). It could even be higher, but probably not VF. You'd need to post a better picture to be sure.

I think it has been overgraded, but possibly not by as much as you're thinking.

Unfortunately the USB cable for my camera is playing up so they are the actual ebay photos.I've tried expanding them so hopefully they will be a bit clearer.Thanks

Attached thumbnail(s)

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[reluctant_numismatist]

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

Feh. Even I can see that's not UNC. The hair above the ear is visibly worn, about EF at a push? Caveat Emptor

[kaiser nine]

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

I'd say that the wear on the figureheads temple is very close to my example,but again I'm no expert.
In fairness to the person who I bought my sovereign from at least they could claim to being a philistine,unlike the person selling the Half Crown who is obviously a dealer and should know better.But perhaps I am being a bit naive.

[Peter]

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

Its a polished GF

[azda]

Peter, on 09 March 2010 - 12:46 AM, said:

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

Its a polished GF

Personally i would have said VF+ so thats 3 grades already for just this coin, it's not easy this grading mularky is it

[azda]

I emailed the seller last night about it, and he replied and said "I have considered what you say and have to admit the coin does not grade as UNC. I have withdrawn it, changed the listing and re-listed it as VF. Thanks for your kind comments I can only say in my defence that I took my eye of the ball".

Well i suppose thats fair enough, at least he done the decent thing and dropped the grade.

[Red Riley]

Peter, on 09 March 2010 - 12:46 AM, said:

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

Its a polished GF

To my mind it's one hell of a bi-grade. The obverse seems to be seems to be weakly struck and GF, whilst the reverse is nearer GVF. UNC it ain't.

[Red Riley]

kaiser nine, on 08 March 2010 - 10:00 PM, said:

Unfortunately the USB cable for my camera is playing up so they are the actual ebay photos.I've tried expanding them so hopefully they will be a bit clearer.Thanks

I'd give it GF/F.

[Hussulo]

Welcome to the forum and some sterling advice from Peter.

I would recommend buying some books reading and trying to learn to grade.
I would also recommend buying from respected dealers or if buying from ebay don't take much notice of most peoples grading as 9 times out of 10 they are over grading the coins.

As for the link to the Sovereign it has been harshly cleaned and no where near Unc. Only really worth bullion value.

[azda]

Hussulo, on 09 March 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

Welcome to the forum and some sterling advice from Peter.

I would recommend buying some books reading and trying to learn to grade.
I would also recommend buying from respected dealers or if buying from ebay don't take much notice of most peoples grading as 9 times out of 10 they are over grading the coins.

As for the link to the Sovereign it has been harshly cleaned and no where near Unc. Only really worth bullion value.

There was no Sovereign Hussulo, it was a halfcrown, perhaps polished with brasso, nevertheless, it was silver, honest

[Hussulo]

azda, on 09 March 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

Hussulo, on 09 March 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

Welcome to the forum and some sterling advice from Peter.

I would recommend buying some books reading and trying to learn to grade.
I would also recommend buying from respected dealers or if buying from ebay don't take much notice of most peoples grading as 9 times out of 10 they are over grading the coins.

As for the link to the Sovereign it has been harshly cleaned and no where near Unc. Only really worth bullion value.

There was no Sovereign Hussulo, it was a halfcrown, perhaps polished with brasso, nevertheless, it was silver, honest

Sorry my mistake I meant halfcrown. thats what happens when you try to converse on three different forums simultaneously. Occasionally things get muddled but I stand by the rest of my statement.

[Peckris]

azda, on 09 March 2010 - 07:07 AM, said:

Peter, on 09 March 2010 - 12:46 AM, said:

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

Its a polished GF

Personally i would have said VF+ so thats 3 grades already for just this coin, it's not easy this grading mularky is it

You're talking about the eBay halfcrown or the OP's reposted gold pictures?

To my eye that 1874 halfcrown is Fine, possibly slightly better, but nowhere near VF.

Now I've seen the OP's repost, I can say that the bigger pictures are helpful, but not comforting. The coin is no more than Fine. £360 was a little high for that grade. Learn from experience, and become familiar with grading as a priority : it is a MUST when new to the hobby and buying coins.

[Rob]

azda, on 08 March 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

Here is a case of a seller stating his coin is UNC when in my opinion it blatantly isn't, for me the head is worn and there's a huge rim nick. See what you and others think.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item3efd8dfb8e

If you look at his description he states UNC then in the article description he says Judge and Bid, its all about enticement

He's been selling "uncirculated" tat for years - in fact I've never seen anything approaching unc listed by him. At least the pictures are good enough to see it isn't unc or anywhere remotely near either.

Rather disturbingly his high and very high grade coins are better than his unc

This post has been edited by Rob: 10 March 2010 - 12:11 AM